 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2006-10-03 02:08
I've been thinking about this question:
Does the thickness of your lip(s) decide whether you end up being a lower-lip player or an upper lip player?
I have a rather large lower lip and therefore I often have difficulty "rolling in" the sides of my lower lip. Therefore, I simply take more lower lip in to keep the sides in, and control the reed mainly with my upper lip. I have been trying to switch to more of a philly "play on the VERY tip of the reed" style, but I'm not sure my lower lip allows the VERY end.
So what are your opinions?
1. Do you play upper lip or lower lip?
2. Do you have a fatter lower lip or fatter upper lip? Does it get in the way?
3. How much reed to do you take in?
Any input would be very helpful. Thanks.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-10-03 04:13
Interesting....
From what i and many of my teachers have been observing on myself for the past few weeks, i tend to use too much lower lip, which spells disaster when it comes to stamina and flexibility, but as you can imagine, this is a vice versa situation and after weeks of working on tucking in more upper lip and making it work for me, walla! The effects are enormous, and now i can play much more than before.
I myself do not believe in such a thing as a upper/lower lip player because of the nature of the reed itself. Obviously it is a double reed and we scrape both sides equally. I remember a topic from months back mentioning about how dependence on one side of the lip can be advantageous in some aspects (e.g. reed resting on upper lip -> easier soft notes), but i strongly believe that this is technique and flexibility, rather than a permanent distinguished position for reed placement.
I take in little reed, which, i suppose in the US is phillyish, haha. I have a similar situation with you, much more lower lip, BUT, i assume not as serious as the situation you might have. In this case i dare not try to ask of you to try anything but i hope you can 'realise' something from my previous paragraphs. All the best!
Post Edited (2006-10-03 04:17)
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-10-03 07:47
i was rolling in both lips over teeth like i'd been taught decades ago, but nowadays i was being told i take in too much reed and can't you play that louder, so this summer i experimented with lips blowing outwards rather than rolled inwards, tip of reed in front of teeth rather than between them, and wow, can actually play forte now, fantastic, too much lip rolled over teeth inside mouth was muffling air flow for me
both lips are about average and equal in size, not particularly thin or thick, although i think they're thinner than they were in my youth, because i don't recall having trouble playing louder back then
with pre-summer style, i was using mostly upper lip & bite to control the sound, now i'm finding both lips are more mobile and doing that together, think it's an embouchure growth & development thing for me here, and it's different from what i was trying to do, like example below
watched a concert of opera selections the other night where the principal oboe was lip-rolled in deep and reed well over half-way in, very steady embouchure, nice sound, so that formation works for him, but after trying to emulate similar style last 2 years, it doesn't work for me, well, not on A-scrape reeds anyway, have to take in more reed on U-scrape
pushing out more lower lip gives me better sound, so i'm thinking more lower lip may be more of an asset? Or are you finding it a liability in some way trying to mold your lips to some required formula, one size doesn't fit all?
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2006-10-03 10:51
Yeah, I'm finding I can tuck enough lower lip in and play on the tip and I have a great, beautiful sound. However, when I go to roll in for higher notes, and try to roll back out, the lower lip comes flying out with it. Hence, I usually stick a lot more lower lip in.
Mind me, don't get me wrong. In no way do I BITE. However, I know I should be able to bring my jaw a bit more forward for pitch support, but that lower lip somehow gets in the way every time.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-03 13:14
I've ben told to apply more pressure upwards against my upper lip, and this does give more control. And speaking to some other oboists it seems they also prefer to put more upward pressure on the reed against the top lip.
And it certainly helps on very quiet playing, and also a diminuendo that fades right out to nothing - which has put my oboe playing on par with my clarinet playing in that respect.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2006-10-03 13:25
Some players like Elaine Douvas are well known upper-lip players, while de Lancie and Mack were lower lip players. It seems to be that the older generation were mainly lower lip players.
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Author: mosh
Date: 2006-10-04 01:32
In reading this line of Blogs, My thoughts go to Allan Vogel's;
"FRENCH, GERMAN and AMERICAN OBOE PLAYING - Some reflection on having studied with Fernand Gillet, Lothar Koch and Robert Bloom"
http://idrs.colorado.edu/Publications/Journal/JNL6/vogel.html#ref2
( Which I know has been mentioned a few times on this BBoard)
He describes his experiences and talks about the amount of reed being taken in when playing on traditional French, German and American scrape reeds.
I think this is something to take into consideration with the idea of "Lower and upper lip" and reed position.
Personally, as I have lips like Mick Jagger and play on a cross French/German styled reed, I have not ever focused on the Upper or Lower lip concept, rather just the round shape of the embrouchure and sides.
Though Chris P your comments on diminuendo and the upper lip pressure sound interesting, i will give it a go...
Mosh.
Stephen Moschner
www.smreeds.com
Melbourne, Australia
0413 889 488
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-10-04 01:56
<<However, I know I should be able to bring my jaw a bit more forward for pitch support, but that lower lip somehow gets in the way every time>>
Betcha this 'rule' was written by someone whose upper/lower lip profile probably doesn't match yours. If i were you, be more selective in screening out oboe players no matter how worthy a name they are, and look only for examples of players with the relatively thin upper and fuller lower lip combination that resembles your own, even in smaller proportions, and observe / ask what they do
Every embouchure is unique, so only the owner can really find it for themselves. Sometimes it's found by just jamming around, it seems to settle down and play just right when you're relaxed and not obsessing about any rules at all
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2006-10-04 02:07
You'd have to be clear about what it means to "play upper or lower lip."
I think that because of the angle the oboe is held (downwards) it only makes sense to play with the top lip more forward. Otherwise, the bottom jaw will interfere with the sound. I don't think it would be a big difference though.
Consider also, that each person's physiology is different and might not look exactly like elaine douvas' embouchure when she plays. From pictures that I've seen, Elaine douvas has pretty thin lips, so when she plays, it might look like she has really tucked that bottom lip under, when in reality it's probably just neutral. My teacher at McGill has a fleshy low lip, so when he plays it looks like his lips are just even. Go figure.
I always like to advocate doing away with all the upper/lower discussion and just play on as little reed as possible. To play this way, you have to be playing essentially "lips only" - by then it won't matter which lip is forward and which is under, because no teeth (or lip-covered teeth) will be involved. The only downside to this playing is that you have to be able to adjust your reeds so that they have a smooth, pure crow - you won't be able to bite or muffle a chirpy reed playing this way.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-10-04 13:08
d-oboe states:
" . . . the angle the oboe is held (downwards) . . ."
Last night, while watching a video of "Carmen" (the one with Maria Ewing as Carmen, played at Covent Gardens), I noticed in the closeups of the orchestra members during the overture that the lady doing the oboe solo held it straight out. Like lipping . . . different strokes for different folks.
Eu
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-10-04 21:14
I brought this subject up with my teacher today, because embouchure formation has been an ongoing issue for me.
Her take is very much like what d-oboe has written, that the "American style" player plays with a bit of an overbite (both lips rolled quite in, but the upper lip more forward. This was (very valuable) news to me -- don't quite know how I missed that little point in the past.
She also wants the oboe held rather "down". Straight out, as she demonstrates, gives too bright a sound; too far down gives a muffled sound. She believes that oboists from European traditions (and using European reeds) may hold the oboe more horizontally (she mentioned Italians as doing this).
As far as Ms. Douvas being an "upper lip" player, my teacher understands that to mean that when Ms. Douvas opens her mouth to take a breath, she leaves the reed resting on her upper lip, rather than the lower lip. I'm not sure what that would imply as far as her embouchure overlap (or lack of it).
Teacher also cited an example of someone she has taught who has a considerable natural underbite, and as a consequence, produces a tone that is quite a bit brighter than one usually associates with the American style. Thus she seems to imply that pushing the jaw out would result in a brighter tone, while pushing it back would create a darker tone.
Just my .02 -- this was a valuable conversation for me to have with my teacher, and I got immediate (good) results experimenting with these variables in my own playing.
Susan
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2006-10-05 01:28
When I said downwards, I mean relatively to completely horizontal from the face. Some oboe players do play a bit higher up, but most don't actually lift up and above the stands (unless of course it's asked for...like in Mahler symphonies...:P)
d
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-10-05 03:26
.......(Should watch video of Concertgebouw Orchestra performing Mahler 3rd and 4th symphonies under Haitink where whole woodwind section raises their instruments to the extreme.)
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